Use of CCRs by PADI Supervisory Staff?
We have had a number of requests in the past from PADI members who would like to use a CCR when they are conducting PADI courses. What do you think? Is it reasonable? Should it be for any course? What should the conditions be, if any?
If you have an opinion, please add your comments on the subject below this post. Let’s see what you think.
September 23, 2009 at 17:41
Hi all (and Mark!)
Great idea! I’d love to have that freedom of choice at least for Pro Level courses. I would probably not see it fit for any level where close supervision or rapid reactions and yo-yo’s may be required. And certainly not for entry level as it would blow away any humble attempt at role modelling.
I hope this one meets positive reactions @ DEMA
All the best,
phil
PADI CD, etc.
September 23, 2009 at 18:10
I don’t think it would be appropriate on beginner courses – whilst students are unfamiliar with the kit, having the instructor in something recognisable is really important.
It’s probably quite a useful tool on rescue courses to show just how different another diver’s kit might be, as long as the scenarios and skills can still be demonstrated.
I’d suggest that it could be used on dives where:
– the student does not need direct supervision
– students are buddied with divers using regular O/C (e.g. another student / DM)
– the instructor has an appropriate buddy (i.e. someone who is familiar with that CCs)
– the instructor has enough dive-time on that CCR to have instructor-level dive skills (perhaps 50 – 100 hours?)
September 23, 2009 at 18:24
I think that the instructor should have a number of hours on the unit before attempting to supervise divers or run a cont ed course.
It took me a while before I was comfortable taking photos when using a CCR… task loading should be added gradually and supervising students is an added task, as is guiding certified divers (I have done this several times now..one point that comes up is that you need to take a bail out tank for yourself and another in case a diver has a problem or runs out of air..this all recreational no deco diving mainly to use up sorb and build up hours on the unit.)
I have also done the same with guided tec divers, in this case I match my OC bail out to the OC divers so I will have extra gas if they need it! Saves a lot on Helium costs.
I have just completed another DSAT Tec Trimix course using OC..this would be nice to do with a CCR! Especially at that level of diving. I think that this is where CCRs belong given the inherent, knowledge, skills and care to dive the units safely. It takes a different attutude all again.
On an aside I still teach the Dolphin SCR to recreational divers..I think this was a good tool for the job..but recently nearly all my students are tec qualified and using it as a stepping stone to CCRs…in the meantime I will have to gain instructor certifications for CCR through another agency to keep up with customer demand! So watching this space carefully for future developments!
Rod Abbotson
Aqaba
Red Sea
Jordan
September 23, 2009 at 21:16
I think that it would promote ccr diving if PADI Instructors were able to use this equipment when teaching some programs. I would see it as a benefit to use them during courses that deal with overhead environments as well as the DSAT programs.
September 23, 2009 at 23:25
Since PADI does not ‘yet’ offer CCR level training, I don’t see why the Instructor should ‘show off’ his skills with students who do not understand the technology and could feel alienated by it. I believe the group (instructors and students) should all be using the same type of equipment on every level of training.
Use of CCR could only be justified with tec diving, even then not during training and having thought of air sharing procedure if needed.
PADI CD and all that follows
September 24, 2009 at 04:47
It definitely could have a place. Not on O/W. On AOW I use a twinset to introduce students to new equipment that is fundamentally the same and this works well. A rebreather would be too much I believe at this level. Rescue also could be inappropriate as I believe this would distract them from the core rescue program. Maybe a rebreather buddy Specialty or Rebreather rescue specialty could be introduced as a starting point.
As long as the instructor had sufficient hours on the unit and could concentrate on doing their job of teaching then specs & DSAT courses where skill demonstration is not required would be good for the student to expand their dive equipment familiarization.
Kevin Black
http://www.kiwidiver.com
September 24, 2009 at 07:24
I think it is overdue that padi develope a course for CCR for both recreational use and technical diving. The reason i say also for recreational use is that you may in the future have open water students that would like to start on ccr instead of open circuit. Who knows what the future diving will be in the next 10 years. Look a while back when padi was resistant to nitrox diving, only to find it was one of the most popular specialty courses. Diving has changed for many of us old timers, from equipment to instruction. Remember the days when you could have any colour wet suit as long as it was black…………… I still enjoy diving in it’s most different forms and who knows what the future holds…………. Let’s inovate for the next generation of divers to be. I started diving at the age of 12 years and enjoy all this new technology. MI-17567
September 24, 2009 at 07:54
Hi all !
Yes, I agree, great idea !
Especially for DSAT Trimix levels, CCR has to be an option. A trained CCR Trimix Diver is as proficient as a OC Trimix Diver to supervise this kind of training level. It would allow also to make Tec Trimix courses more competitive (cost of OC helium for the instructor), compared to other training organisations, where this has been allowed now for many years.
On the other hand, on all courses were the students need to get familiar with scuba equipment, and where instructors would still need to demonstrate skills, the instructor has to have the same equipment as the student. Once the student has mastered the skills necessary to dive with his equipment, it doesn’t really matter anymore what the instructor is diving with.
The supervising instructor needs to have the skills (and the equipment, i.e. open circuit breathing system to be able to give air to the students in case of an emergency) to assist his student divers and keep control over his class in any situation if diving a rebreather. A very good CCR diving experience is necessary.
Cheers !
Christian Heylen
Sharm el Sheikh
DSAT Tec Trimix IT
CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer
September 24, 2009 at 13:59
Just had another though that maybe should be seriously taken into consideration re:CCR use. As this becomes more prevalent PADI Divers may find themselves buddied up on dives with CCR divers…so we should start thinking about putting a revalant section in the Rescue Diver course, with an optional CCR rescue scenario (as they have just reduced it back to two scenarios again!) This would have to be optional as many centres will have no access to CCRs or even SCRs for a practical drill, but it should at least be covered in the next updated Rescue course..and of course suddenly..oops what about the Divemaster course…supervising CCR divers..and so it goes…I think we should start addressing the issues now as CCRs are becoming more popular every year.
September 24, 2009 at 14:42
Try demonstrating Fin Piv with a CCR! I’ve seen A DSD being conducted by an instructor using a CCR (he wanted to clock up hours)
No I don’t think it is a good idea, I agree with Gary Instructors should have the same type of equipment his students are using. Tec yes a little different but again when teaching the basics the instructor should also be using OC if not how can he/she demonstrate the necessary skills, perhaps on further training yes CCR could be used but with caution. I think if PADI/DSAT were to allow CCR use by instructors strict guidelines should be laid down.
Kev Turner
CID Lanza
September 25, 2009 at 00:37
Hello Everyone,
I agree with you all in the fact that having an instructor in a CCR is reasonable for some courses and as a direct way to market CCR diving. We need to keep in mind that this involves direct participation from PADI in the CCR business. That is a whole new business!!
I think the matter goes on to how deep PADI wants to go with CCR’s. As many of us agree, the value added for “allowing a CCR while supervising courses” can be questionable and there are probably as many opinions as divers in the world. In addition a lot of work will be needed to regulate that use of CCR’s and many contradictions will appear.
On the other hand, I think most of us will agree in the fact that what we need as PADI members is an innovative approach for CCR training in the recreational and technical fields and that we need it in the short term. This involves really hard work as well but PADI will have to restructure all the PADI ConEd system and teaching standards to suit the market’s needs in the future anyways…
I’m confident that PADI will come out with something great, just like they did with the EANx or TEC and that it is just a matter of time.
Have a great weekend,
Jorge A. Mahauad
September 25, 2009 at 07:47
Great idea!
This is one of the great things about the TDI / IANTD Tec programs. You can teach any class in the highest level of gear you are certified instructor for. I’m sure we could have countless arguments about open water classes… but I won’t bother. Let’s start, now, with any classes above open water.
Cheers,
John
September 25, 2009 at 16:24
I think it is about time to allow that! Personally I agree 100% with the statement of Christian Heylen above! OWD courses in confined water do not make sense with the instructor having a CCR but for the other courses it should be an option – given sufficient experience with the CCR, appropriate equipment etc.
Regards
Matthias Breit
PADI CD
DSAT Tec Trimix IT
CCR Trimix IT
September 29, 2009 at 00:39
[...] Tagged CCR training, mainstream CCR, PADI / DSAT On September 23, 2009 a post was created in the DSAT Tec Rec Blog. In this post, the PADI / DSAT Crew started a very interesting discussion. Should supervisory staff be allowed to wear CCRs when conducting PADI courses? [...]
October 1, 2009 at 11:47
Instructors should be wearing the same style of equipment as their students through the entire course.
You cannot demonstrate OC skills while diving CC and visa versa.
In both confined and open water training at any level, the students are learning good habits, skills and general confidence in their equipment. These should be exemplified by confident, role model instructional team members using the same style of equipment as the students.
If you want to promote another style of equipment this can be done with advertising, presentations, demo days and familiarisation dives.
Safe diving
Seb
October 1, 2009 at 16:14
Good Idea,
On the face of it I think each Instructor should be able to assess the situation and apply the Padi/DSAT Principal’s. So where prudent Yes a CCR could be used on the relevant course or as a sales feature of a follow on course
October 2, 2009 at 10:56
Instructors should wear the same kit as their students, otherwise students will not learn by imitation. Would you teach an rebreather course wearing open circuit? Many instructors only want to wear the rebeather to increase their hours on the unit! Not for any reason to do with increasing the quality of the course that they are teaching. By wearing a CCR are you adding to the quality of the students educational experience? In my personal opinion you are not.
October 6, 2009 at 19:51
Just one quick comment.
I am interested to know how many Instructors actually were wetsuits in the colder areas, because that is what the students are wearing, and you should be in the same kit. Right!
The skills are normally shown in the pool. No need for a CCR there.
October 7, 2009 at 10:32
I do agree with Christian and Matthias. Some comments above show that no or very basic knowledge about CCR’s is present even with Instructors. Of course OC skills that need demonstration (like CCR skills as well) by the instructor should be carried out with the proper gear. Experienced CCR Instructors know that OC beginner courses (lots of ascends) do not make sense when the instructor is wearing a rebreather. But nearly any other course do. By the way: You CAN demonstrate OC skills with a rebreather as every proper rebreather offers OC possibilities! In fact there are beginner courses on the market that teach “learn to dive” on a CCR where the student gains a CCR as well as an OC certification. Experience shows that experienced divers have more problems to “convert” to a rebreather than unexperienced divers or beginners. Not to accept CCR’s on an instructor during Tec courses is at least ignorant. Of course all dives where the instructor has to demonstrate (valve shut down drills, etc) should be carried out by the instructor wearing twin tanks with isolator manifold. When the student reaches the last training dives (for example Tec Deep Dives 7 – 12 and Tec Trimix dives 5 -8) there is no need for the instructor to wear OC. If at this stage students still need demonstration on basic OC skills they should anyway not be allowed to proceed and do decompression diving. I once learned from James to keep an open mind, add new tools to my toolbox and be ready to accept and apply changes in the industry. That is still valid!
Colleagues, you prefer to stick to old (CCR free) models? – Please do so, it’s better for me and my business.
And by the way, due to the non-CCR policy of PADI I became IT and Instructor of 4!!! other organisations leading to the fact that my yearly schedule is full of Tec and Rebreather courses.
October 8, 2009 at 11:14
I am not personally against rebreathers, I dive them and run a business that supports their use. My question is that when you are teaching courses, does wearing substantially different diving apparatus to that which your student is wearing enhance the learning course for the student or not?
October 11, 2009 at 16:53
[...] atechdiver, There is a relly good post on DSAT TecRec blog on the matter. You can read a lot fo comments and ideas there. If you are going to DEMA there [...]
December 8, 2009 at 16:34
This is a technical blog site isn’t it?
We are not here to discuss using CCR’s while teaching Open Water divers. Jesus, wake up!
The reason it has been brought up is that some technical instructors feel it is now safer to go deeper on a CCR than it is on Open Circuit.
I do not want to discuss the merits of each rebreather on the market but, if we dive under the presumption that our kit WILL work for the duration of the dive (and we do, otherwise we would never dive) then all the bailout gas carried by an Instructor on CCR when teaching an Open Circuit course can be used by the OC students should a problem arise. Also, CCR is limited by scrubber duration not gas supply so an Instructors options are time based not gas based. For example…I had a stress problem with a diver on a 100 metre dive a little while back and I was on OC as well as the diver. I had only a few options for her as the spare gas I was carrying was limited, primarily due to the fact that both of us would be using the gas for deco. If I was on CCR I would have been able to give her all my gas, which would have opened up many more safety options. As it is, I have beem trained really well and was able to handle the issue without any incident. i just like the options that CCR offers.
On a final note, I do not feel we need to use CCR for tec 40 to 50 programmes as we have many options due to the fact that deco is limited and we are actually relatively shallow. But on tec 65 and tec trimix….come on, this is 2010! Give me options please.
Paul